this is a rant, because I would disrupt bible study too much if I actualy spoke my mind. Since i have no direct christian medium for my pent up rage i will release on the deaf ears of the internet.
At the bible study this quote "... by penance we make satisfaction for sin..." Cardinal George Pell was analysed and criticised. It is ASSUMED (ASS-U-ME) that the catholic belief is that they can atone for their sins through personal deeds (unconfirmed, everyone seems to think "yeah that sounds true"<-- prejudice). Historically, this is most definitely true but in the modern day practice i don't know enough to say for certain. Even so the idea itself is apparently supposed to be analysed apart from its Catholic origins. What I gather from the study is a) we are made righteous through faith in God (a valid point) b) Catholics have it unquestionably wrong (or to put it nicely, those who believe they can atone for their sins by anything (such as works) other then faith are wrong i.e. Catholics).
I have HUGE beefs with point b to where it actually makes me fill with rage to see us BCs so easily and quickly draw lines in the sand. Firstly the quote starts with ... and ends with ... , could it be MORE out of context? and secondly the word they chose to use is satisfaction. If they meant atonement or forgiveness they would have used that instead but they didn't, significant? I do believe so. Grounds for dismal imo.
I guess my next problem with it is, they are en masse probably wrong, but HOW wrong are they? Nobody says "they are not believers of Christ Jesus, and their theological misunderstanding of the significance of grace and faith as the sole source of our salvation will lead to their condemnation to fiery hell", So how wrong are they? 0.00001% or 99%, no one wants to address that question. Oh, they are theoretically wrong, let's just leave it at that (Woohoo, i can go around saying Catholics are theoretically wrong, my life has never been so enlightened)
And guess what happens at the end, how are BCs made righteous? Through faith. How does one be righteous? Exercise your faith. What does that mean exactly? Show your faith through WORKS CAN WE COME MORE FULL CIRCLE PLEASE. So BCs do works, but cos of their faith and love of God. Catholics do works (penance) cos they love/fear God so much that when the sin they feel really guilty about it and feel that they need to ask for a penance to make up for their guilt. It's a dangerous line which allows people to form a pavolian link between forgiveness and penance. But remember we are to analyse the idea apart from its roots. And my conclusion is the idea is sound much like communism is also a sound idea, but unfortunately both are susceptible to corruption. What ideas are not?
The idea of penance can be quickly explained by an example. So you're father says "Never sit in my chair". You sit, you break it, u say you're sorry, you ask for forgiveness and you offer to fix it (typical behaviour). God's forgiveness freely given and stems from his love for us, the offering to fix it is the penance. It's an acceptance of punishment to bring balance. The counterpoint is that penance devalues Jesus's death and ressurection, you will never be able to balance your sins. On the surface, excellent point, between the words it basically says Penance is unholy (detract's from God's sovereignty). In application, BCs when you break your father's chair dont offer to fix it. Have faith in that a penance is not neccessary as Jesus's death and ressurection has already sufficiently paid for all.
However, if your father tells you to fix the chair, well you better do it. a) Obedience to your father is plainly written in the bible, so by commiting that work you are exercising your faith and being righteous. b) he'll beat your arse if you dont.
This would have been a lot quicker. We are not saved through any works, but only the faith in Jesus who died and lived again so our sins would be repaid. Oh and Catholics are wrong, penance devalues the Christian beliefs. Discussions are open if they lead to the aforementioned conclusion. That is our message. End of Study
oh how good it is to be free from those cantankerous words which have gnawed my mind incessantly.
At the bible study this quote "... by penance we make satisfaction for sin..." Cardinal George Pell was analysed and criticised. It is ASSUMED (ASS-U-ME) that the catholic belief is that they can atone for their sins through personal deeds (unconfirmed, everyone seems to think "yeah that sounds true"<-- prejudice). Historically, this is most definitely true but in the modern day practice i don't know enough to say for certain. Even so the idea itself is apparently supposed to be analysed apart from its Catholic origins. What I gather from the study is a) we are made righteous through faith in God (a valid point) b) Catholics have it unquestionably wrong (or to put it nicely, those who believe they can atone for their sins by anything (such as works) other then faith are wrong i.e. Catholics).
I have HUGE beefs with point b to where it actually makes me fill with rage to see us BCs so easily and quickly draw lines in the sand. Firstly the quote starts with ... and ends with ... , could it be MORE out of context? and secondly the word they chose to use is satisfaction. If they meant atonement or forgiveness they would have used that instead but they didn't, significant? I do believe so. Grounds for dismal imo.
I guess my next problem with it is, they are en masse probably wrong, but HOW wrong are they? Nobody says "they are not believers of Christ Jesus, and their theological misunderstanding of the significance of grace and faith as the sole source of our salvation will lead to their condemnation to fiery hell", So how wrong are they? 0.00001% or 99%, no one wants to address that question. Oh, they are theoretically wrong, let's just leave it at that (Woohoo, i can go around saying Catholics are theoretically wrong, my life has never been so enlightened)
And guess what happens at the end, how are BCs made righteous? Through faith. How does one be righteous? Exercise your faith. What does that mean exactly? Show your faith through WORKS CAN WE COME MORE FULL CIRCLE PLEASE. So BCs do works, but cos of their faith and love of God. Catholics do works (penance) cos they love/fear God so much that when the sin they feel really guilty about it and feel that they need to ask for a penance to make up for their guilt. It's a dangerous line which allows people to form a pavolian link between forgiveness and penance. But remember we are to analyse the idea apart from its roots. And my conclusion is the idea is sound much like communism is also a sound idea, but unfortunately both are susceptible to corruption. What ideas are not?
The idea of penance can be quickly explained by an example. So you're father says "Never sit in my chair". You sit, you break it, u say you're sorry, you ask for forgiveness and you offer to fix it (typical behaviour). God's forgiveness freely given and stems from his love for us, the offering to fix it is the penance. It's an acceptance of punishment to bring balance. The counterpoint is that penance devalues Jesus's death and ressurection, you will never be able to balance your sins. On the surface, excellent point, between the words it basically says Penance is unholy (detract's from God's sovereignty). In application, BCs when you break your father's chair dont offer to fix it. Have faith in that a penance is not neccessary as Jesus's death and ressurection has already sufficiently paid for all.
However, if your father tells you to fix the chair, well you better do it. a) Obedience to your father is plainly written in the bible, so by commiting that work you are exercising your faith and being righteous. b) he'll beat your arse if you dont.
This would have been a lot quicker. We are not saved through any works, but only the faith in Jesus who died and lived again so our sins would be repaid. Oh and Catholics are wrong, penance devalues the Christian beliefs. Discussions are open if they lead to the aforementioned conclusion. That is our message. End of Study
oh how good it is to be free from those cantankerous words which have gnawed my mind incessantly.
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